Talk:Dragonball Evolution/Comparison to Akira Toriyama's manga
I guess we're gonna have to talk about this Since no reason was given for reverting my edit, I'm not sure how to address this conflict of edits, but I'll restate my points 1. Oriental can be considered offensive. This, at least, must be changed. 2. Goku is drawn East Asian looking? Really? What features does he have that make him look East Asian? Or is there any indication at all of him resembling any particular race? 02:12, May 10, 2014 (UTC) :yeah i agree, that should be removed 09:28, May 10, 2014 (UTC) ::Oriental is not offensive. It never has been. Actually, the word "Asian" is very generic and constitutes numerous races and origin that does not imply that they are orientals at all. I'm originally from Asia... does that make me oriental? There are over 100 races in Asia who are not of oriental descent. Asia is a region, a landmass, and a continent, not a race in and of itself. If any other word were used to describe this, it wouldn't merit inclusion. The purpose is to convey that Goku and pretty much the rest of the Saiyans are designed in the image of orientals, the same image used by numerous Manga/Anime authors and animators. Additionally, there's no need to go searching for this as a reference. We didn't reference the rest of the pieces of information, so there's no need to reference that one either. From my recollection, Toriyama's designs of the hero characters are that of oriental origin; same goes for Yamcha, Tien, etc. - 13:41, May 10, 2014 (UTC) That's why I said "East Asian", not "Asian". "Oriental" just means "eastern". Actually, let me post Wikipedia's opening article for "Orient": "The Orient means the East. It is a traditional designation for anything that belongs to the Eastern world or the Middle East (aka Near East) or the Far East, in relation to Europe. In English, it is largely a metonym for, and coterminous with, the Continent of Asia." Additionally "Because of historical discrimination against Chinese and Japanese... some people consider the term derogatory." If I'm right about what you mean when you say "there's no need to go searching for this as a reference", you basically mean that there's no need to find a citation for Goku being designed as East Asian, correct? Otherwise I've misunderstood you. If so, that means that you're using a personal judgement to classify Goku as East Asian when, in fact, he has no definable traits to indicate it. If you have a source besides your recollection or opinion, you can totally just shut me down here though. 18:51, May 10, 2014 (UTC) P.S. the Wikipedia page for the now-derogatory term "Mongoloid" uses and cites a professor's prescription to use the term "East Asian". 23:58, May 10, 2014 (UTC) :I agree that Goku has no physically East Asian features. Also, he is an alien, and East Asia does not exist in Dragon World. 20:40, May 10, 2014 (UTC) ::Actually, I had read about his design but this was a long time ago. I simply do not want to have to cite this instance; there has been a lot of derogatory attachments to these phrases, particularly in regards to the term oriental; I never viewed this term as derogatory nor will I do so anytime soon. The best thing to assume is that it is not being used in a negative connotation, but simply to convey the image of the design in and of itself. Toriyama's designs are based on the lore of the monkey king and journey to the west instances, both conveying the oriental characters. See here: Nimadan and David answered most accurately. - 05:45, May 11, 2014 (UTC) If we accepted all info on this wiki based on "I read about ___ somewhere some time", then we'd be way more dubious. I personally Googled around, but I couldn't find a source to support Goku being East Asian. As I already explained, Oriental just means "Eastern", and was used to refer to everything from Saudia Arabia to Russia to India to Japan. Additionally, Oriental has been considered derogatory due to past discrimination. Two people on Yahoo! Answers agreeing with you doesn't really support your case in comparison to Wikipedia. Check this link out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orient#American_English Also, there's no reason not to use the term "East Asian", as it is accurate and unoffensive. Back to the main point though. Being based off certain lore doesn't make characters automatically of that culture. Lion King is based off Hamlet, but the characters are neither Danish nor English. Plus, Toriyama clearly created a world without actual countries, so why would it be significant to note that a difference between DBE and the original manga is that Goku is white in one and East Asian in the other? There is no white or East Asian, and even comparing it to real-world races, Goku has really light skin and huge round eyes, even in comparison to other characters. And race is already something really fuzzy. 17:06, May 11, 2014 (UTC) :As long as you realize that the intention of the writing is not to be offensive and to depict that the original Goku concept is actually of Asian descent, then it's fine. What word is used to describe this doesn't really matter. The fact remains that the original concept of Goku is portrayed by numerous actors, be it from the original movies or not. I'm not sure why you persist to argue this, but Toriyama himself stated and I quote "Goku's character is based off the Chinese Legend of the Monkey King." Of course the statement is originally in Japanese as Toriyama does not have interviews in English. So this is far before the story revealed him to be an alien from space. The initial concept of the character, origin, and his facial design is constructed in the image of what you would like to refer to an "East Asian" man. This is why the original Dragon Ball live action movies portrayed him in this light. This is the original accurate depiction of the character's design. If you like to source Wikipedia so much, here's a nice link: The name Goku is the Japanese name of the monkey 孫悟空 (Sun Wukong), the central character of the novel. To be creative with the idea, Toriyama designed Goku as a human boy with a monkey's tail, rather than a complete simian, because the tail would give him a distinguishing feature. Similarly, in Journey to the West, Sun Wukong can assume human form, but retains his tail. He later stated that the tail was a pain to draw, hence why he had it get cut off early on. Toriyama did not initially plan to make Goku an alien, it was not until the introduction of fighters from other planets that he established him as a Saiyan. Goku was given the ability to teleport to any planet in seconds, so that Toriyama could increase the pace of the story. Wanting Dragon Ball to have a Chinese appearance, Toriyama modeled Goku's gi (martial arts uniform) on the robes worn by the Shaolin monks of China. This is all from wikipedia. Goku's original design is Chinese. Here's the link: Goku on wikipedia - 18:26, May 11, 2014 (UTC) :Okay, so we can use East Asian since it doesn't matter. That wasn't really my main point anyway. :The other DB live action films use East Asian actors because they are made by East Asian people. Also, I didn't exactly say Goku isn't East Asian, but it certainly is up to interpretation given that he's a cartoon with no features to say whether he's Asian or white. It's not like you can tell whether or not he has an epicanthic fold. In other words, DBE's interpretation isn't a contradiction because there's nothing to contradict. :Sun Wukong, the Monkey King, is a monkey and can't be classified by race. Sun Wukong himself is based on Hanuman from Indian folklore. If I base a character I write after Poseidon from Greek mythology it doesn't make him Greek either. :The strongest point you make is part of the Wikipedia article where it says that Toriyama gave Goku Shaolin robes, but that's just following the Chinese theme of Dragon Ball itself, rather than specifically giving Goku a race, plus defining his race by his clothes is iffy. However, we can just fix that by saying "in the original manga, Goku wears Shaolin robes, but in the film, he wears more modern, "Western" clothes". We can even mention the fact that Toriyama originally designed DB to have a Chinese feel. : 21:04, May 11, 2014 (UTC) ::The fact remains that there are no Western people who normally dress in Chinese attire and are married to Chinese/Japanese people and live in that culture which celebrates the tournament and Kung Fu nature. For example, Chi-Chi is not Western, neither is Ox-King, etc. They are all of "East Asian" descent. And this is the same for all the primary folk in the series. The only characters who I can confirm are not of this race are the likes of General Blue German, Officer Black African, Commander Red Irish/Scottish, General White Russian, and aliens such as Piccolo, Frieza, etc. you get the idea. The Z Warriors are predominantly not only designed "East Asian" but they are married to the like. I'm fine with changing the phrase oriental to East Asian, but I still don't consider it derogatory; I don't have patience to argue about that. - 22:06, May 11, 2014 (UTC) I think it's hard to say that Goku has an East Asian design based on his clothes, since he would have worn whatever clothing the people that found him wore. If he landed on Namek he would have Namekian clothes. 03:54, May 12, 2014 (UTC) You mention aliens like Piccolo and Frieza, but Goku is also is also an alien, he just looks like a human. But he has no particularly distinguishing Asian traits besides his clothes. Not sure how you worked out how General White is Russian; he has as many features that make him Russian as Goku has that make him look Asian. 23:28, May 12, 2014 (UTC) :I believe all the Red Ribbon Army members have different ethnicity/race. He (General White) speaks in a Russian accent and lives in a Siberia-esque territory. I think they're all designed that way on purpose. I forgot to mention, Purple is Japanese, and Tao is Chinese. This is deciphered easily by their fighting art styles. I still think this conversation is going nowhere. 10X already altered the previous wording and made it match the wikipedia article. I myself still concur fully with whatever Toriyama's intentions are. - 03:52, May 13, 2014 (UTC) By that logic, Goku is American because Funi dub gives him an American accent. Saying "I believe" and "I think" invalidates the statement that follows. There are lots of Caucasian people who use Chinese and Japanese fighting styles. More importantly, none of these points have anything to do with Goku. If you think the conversation is going nowhere, we can vote, but it looks like you're already outnumbered. You still seem to be unable to answer my question of "what features does Goku have that make him look East Asian?" 21:03, May 13, 2014 (UTC) :Whatever Toriyama has said in his interviews validates this in and of itself. If by your logic everyone is American, then it destroys the purpose of having a Japanese anime/manga series in general. Nevermind what I said word for word, try to look at what Toriyama himself has said. He based the design off Chinese and Japanese lore. If that counts for nothing, then I guess what I said counts for nothing as well. Does it matter that Goku is an alien more than his initial concept design, or is that inherently disqualified due to his being of alien origin later in the series. I'm just going to start quoting exact word for word what Toriyama says about this: *''"If its going to be Chinese, it might as well be from the Monkey King."'' *''"The Monkey King is, after all, a tall tale with adventure, However, I decided to go with a Monkey King with some modern elements. I thought it would be easy to arrange with a base story all ready. The Monkey King, known in Japan as Saiyuki, or The Journey west, is a legend known to nearly every Asian child as the archetype of the quest story. An early thought to draw Goku as a real monkey, however, was discarded as unoriginal. That would have been the Monkey King exactly. That wouldn't show any creativity, so I decided to make the main character human. I wanted a normal human boy, but that wouldn't have character. Ultimately, Toriyama decided to add a little something extra."'' *''"My wife was infatuated with China back then, so I used some photo books she had bought. Also, before the serial had started, I'd gone to Bali with my family and assistants."'' *''"Another unique setting is Dragon Ball's very Asian heaven and hell, where Goku spends more than a little of the series, trying to get back to Earth."'' *''"I didn't have in mind that Goku would be an alien when he had a tail or turned into a giant ape."'' *''"Frankly, I don't quite understand why it happened. While the manga was being serialized, the only thing I wanted as I kept drawing was to make Japanese boys happy."'' *''"For the colors of the dōgi, the motif is naturally the color of the robes by Chinese monks, such as the Shaolin. The fact that it became red in the anime was always something I was a bit dissatisfied with."'' *''"When Dragon Ball began, it was loosely based on the classic Chinese novel Journey to the West, with Goku being Sun Wukong and Bulma Xuanzang."'' *''Dragon Ball creator Akira Toriyama initially felt surprised by Dragonball Evolution and suggested to his fans to treat it as an alternate universe version of his work. In an interview with the Asahi Shimbun on Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, Toriyama revealed that he felt the Hollywood producers did not listen to him and his ideas and suggestions, and that the final version was not on par with the original Dragon Ball series.'' - Toriyama's reaction to the casting of Chatwin. This is the best I can do in that regard. I can't translate every single Japanese statement, but this is sufficient evidence for there to be somewhat comparative notion of Goku's design. - 00:39, May 14, 2014 (UTC) "If by your logic everyone is American..." what? I was just turning your own logic back at you when you said General White was Russian. It's rhetoric. As I already said (with more than one analogy), basing the design off Chinese and Japanese lore doesn't make Goku Japanese; repeating yourself won't convince anyone. I guess I'll respond to these quotes, by bullet point (each bullet representing a quote). *That doesn't relate to Goku, it's just him talking about mythology that influenced him. *This is him explaining why Goku is not a monkey, but not about his race. *Explaining influence, but that could be about anything, not just Goku's design. More likely story elements. *About setting rather than Goku's race. *That doesn't mean Goku was designed as an Asian boy, just that Toriyama decided to turn his otherness into alienness. *? *We already discussed how this isn't a strong argument. *Sun Wukong was a monkey, not an Asian boy, so not really relevant. *That's not his reaction to Chatwin's casting, that's his reaction to DBE as a whole. Obviously I'm not gonna argue that Goku is any particular race, but it's closer to speculation to say that he is any particular race at all. This entire comparison is too much of a stretch to be included among such things as the fact that Bulma's hair is brown in the movie, as opposed to blue. 19:31, May 14, 2014 (UTC) Not relating to the major topic of this thread, but Bulma's hair in the manga was purple, not blue. If this page is meant to be compared to the manga and not the anime. Just a nitpick. 20:01, May 14, 2014 (UTC) Good point. 20:20, May 14, 2014 (UTC) :Shakuran, what is your point? Do you want to disregard all the initial concept design and whatever Toriyama says? Or is it better not to say anything at all? At this point, I honestly don't care enough to go on a chase for more quotes to try and prove a point. Do you want the information removed? - 21:03, May 14, 2014 (UTC) My point is that, given the lack of definitive information to support it, claiming that Justin Chatwin is the wrong race is too much of a stretch to be featured here. It would make more sense to say his clothes and look are Westernized. Your information regarding initial concept design and Toriyama's quotes are about motifs in Dragon Ball as a whole, rather than Goku's race, so there's no need to find more quotes if they are as much of a stretch as these. Keep in mind 10X Kamehameha and GokuBolyVegeta also have supported my point. 23:44, May 14, 2014 (UTC) :There is great deliberation about Goku's design he is East Asian or not; which case in point, automatically is reason to be brought up in and of itself. If there was no need to deliberate this, then why not remove it? Regardless, I wouldn't have supported it if it were not for all the enormous amount of discussion that is going on about it as of now. Just the google search alone holds 1,700,000 results about this discussion in reference to whether Goku is of Asian design: Check here. This merits a great deal of controversy for both arguments. If these discussions didn't initially exist, then it would be pointless to bring it up in the first place. - 01:51, May 15, 2014 (UTC) That's a good evaluation PZ. From all this deliberation, we can conclude that it is unclear, and we are not likely to ever find a 100% answer about whether or not Goku's body looks East Asian. Even if we do decide, we must respect that other opinions are also valid. Based on that, I think we should avoid the topic all together in the article. This topic on the talk page can be pointed to, to prove that we have done our duty to consider all possible angles. 23:58, May 15, 2014 (UTC) :Understood. So in case someone brings it up in the future, we'll just direct them here or until there's furthermore solid proof with word-for-word confirmation, it is best to leave it ambiguous. Thanks so much for your input 10X, I highly appreciate your comprehension of these technical details. - 00:11, May 16, 2014 (UTC) So we're removing the "Caucasian man" part from the article? That's all I originally wanted. 03:19, May 18, 2014 (UTC) :I took it down with an edit summary reflecting why. 14:31, May 18, 2014 (UTC)